To talk about this subject I've brought on David Tian, well known as Singapore's "Hitch" (reference to the Will Smith movie). So for guys who are interested in Asian women, whether they be Western countries or in Asia, that's kind of another topic we’re going to be looking into because it’s a bit different. [Angel Donovan]: So, yeah, we’re just going to dive straight into the topic here with, basically, you know, is, are Asian women like culturally, ethnically Asian women, and Western women different or are they the same? But it’s a good idea to keep in mind that most of the psychology that we’re basing, or at least I’m basing, my dating skills training on is coming from evolutionary psychology. But the little bit, the 5% that is different, can make a big difference at crucial points. [David Tian]: So it is important to understand the culture and especially if you’re in Asia or if it’s a woman who’s surrounded by other Asians who are still thinking very much along the lines of an Asian culture that there are some really big points that could really trip you up later on. So Japan created its national identity in the 700s AD in opposition or with China in mind as the major, the dominant culture in the area, and same with Korea. [David Tian]: So they’re always defying themselves against the middle kingdom, China, and the same goes with Vietnam in the South. Whereas in the West I think there's an emphasis on individualism that they don’t want to admit that they’re affected by such things as face. I think that's one of the reasons why Dale Carnegie’s book How to Win Friends and Influence People is so effective in the West. So just this view that being in society means that you have to have a different standard of behavior. And so I remember that girl was just like, “I don’t know you. Don’t talk to me.” And I was like, “Are you serious? Like if you ask for directions and it looks like you’re a tourist, which if you’re a foreigner, probably people will just accept that. [David Tian]: Especially if you start with English. [Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] [David Tian]: And then as people start crossing the road, that's when you open her. So she has to stop, and then no one will be looking at her because everyone’s going to be busy trying to get across the road. [David Tian]: Well, a major mark against the foreigner coming in from nowhere and just cold approaching at clubs is that he ignores the fact that she’s probably there with a bigger group of people. [David Tian]: If an Asian girl shows up at a bar by herself, I mean just like anywhere else in the world but especially in Asia, she’s DTF, like she’s looking to hook up. [Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] [David Tian]: Not being misogynistic there. [David Tian]: And he taught me the special type of cave manning.David is perhaps the best known dating coach in Asia today and has spent over 6 years living in various parts of Asia, as having studied a Ph D covering aspects of Asian culture. So what I like to tell guys in Singapore and throughout Asia is that the influence of culture versus the influence of millions of years of evolution is miniscule. And now with Singapore and Hong Kong, the Chinese influence moving further South, I think the Confucian influence there is pretty strong. And one of the underlying principles among the many rules or advice he gave is that you need to take into account how people feel about themselves in relation to other people, the people around them. [David Tian]: And so you made him feel bad, so you lose a friend. And people won’t be looking or staring, because they won’t think, “Oh, it’s pickup.” They think, “Oh, it’s just some lost tourist,” right? [David Tian]: So that’ll allow her to let her guard down as far as face goes, and then you can proceed more normally. [Angel Donovan]: Sorry, hey man, what does DTF mean? Yeah, anyway, so she’s looking to hook up, and if you see that capitalize it, but it’s pretty rare for a really hot girl to be there alone at a club. I called it Asian cave manning, which is where at the beginning you don’t touch the girl at all.[Angel Donovan]: Hey, this is Angel Donovan at Dating Skills Review with Dating Skills Podcast. [David Tian]: Yeah, it’s pretty cool too because you’ve had quite a bit of experience in Asia as well, so it’s really nice to be able to talk to a guy who understands the issues that are unique to this part of the world. And there's just a lot of bored-looking Chinese girls sitting around the couch. [David Tian]: Or those five-minute interactions, you exchange numbers, just totally down to meet up – as soon as she turns around, those guys can be in her face, the girls can be looking at her like, “You just talked to a random foreigner.” So I don’t mean this to scare any guys off from approaching at clubs in China or at tables, but it is a challenge, like they’re designed in order to ward off random people approaching them, sort of like on a chessboard when they do that, what’s that called? That's sort of designed to protect the women and for there to be an intimidating presence there. So like in particular, one of the areas I found is like where you don’t feel that the girl’s responding to you, you don’t feel that anything is really going on and it’s not moving forward, because she’s not really giving these signs to you. Are there other kinds of signs and indicators of interest to use that are different from the West? So you put your arm around her shoulder, you bring her in and you just lead, lead, lead.Today we have David Tian, who is also known as the Asian Rake. [Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] [David Tian]: [Laughs] But even if you’re the hottest guy, you approach that group, because of face, because of social circle pressure, she really can’t pay you any attention. And the key there is, just like with any long-term strategy with any guy who’s going to be doing this for longer than a few months, is that you really need to be building a social that has access, will give you access to cool guys who know hot girls. And so I thought, “Well, I’ve got nothing to lose,” because I’m not getting anywhere waiting for what I then thought of as IOI, because I wasn’t getting any of those.So he's not only experienced - but also very well qualified. So every woman everywhere wants a guy who’s confident, who’s charismatic, who’s dominant, who has a sense of humor. [Angel Donovan]: Yeah, and you know, the whole Confucian angle has a big link to the 'face concept', you know, and it’s a really important topic, so what you have to understand when it comes to Asian women is face. [Angel Donovan]: The thing is this also gets a little bit hyped, I think, the topic of face. For example, the advice that you can never win a debate, and the reason being even if you won the debate, you’ve now shamed this guy in front of all his peers and friends. Like if you think in China, they usually have these… You just sort of stick your face out there and you’re just meeting with your vibe.This was a great discussion that both David and I enjoyed, as we've both been living and dating in Asia for many years. Certainly when I first went to China, it was always the big thing, face, which I think it can also be translated to things that happen in the West as well, that face exists in the West as well, it’s just that it’s something, I mean for me, that happens more like you see more of it or it’s more noticeable in the East. The hottest girls are usually with rich dudes who are buying bottles, and the typical Chinese club is just tables after tables after tables and a tiny dance floor. [David Tian]: And the Chinese guys are playing dice and drinking, because they don’t dance. [David Tian]: And the rook switches places with the king. Now, I think the other angle is that the signs that you’re reading from girls like these bitch signs like you were just talking about and other signs you get from the women in Asia sometimes can be very easily misinterpreted if you don’t understand the culture, if you don’t understand the kind of the situation you’re standing in. When I first started doing this in China, I’d been trained in America, then when I went over I didn’t escalate very much and I felt like I wasn’t getting anywhere. But once she accepts your presence, you can basically start cave manning at that point.In this Dating Skills Podcast episode we dig into the cultural aspects of dating. [Angel Donovan]: Yeah, so that's kind of how we know each other as well, because we’ve been in China and Asia for a while. And one other thing I just thought I should really add is that you’re ethnic Chinese. The Vietnamese culturally are quite close to the Chinese, but the Filipino is an interesting mix of a lot of different cultures down there in Southeast Asia. They would just try to be logical and rational and look at the issues. So if you do do something like that wrong when you’re with a girl, I think it gives her reasons not to see you again or not to continue the relationship. I mean, I always think it’s good to look at some kind of practical example, right? So I found this to be especially true in Japan and Korea and in Singapore, and less so much in China but it’s still there, that she’s going to be very sensitive if other people are looking or watching. [David Tian]: So if you’re drawing attention to yourself, so for instance, the pickup in Top Gun that Tom Cruise did. [David Tian]: He grabs the microphone and starts singing, and the entire bar stares at her and the guy’s singing, you know, maybe this would be cool in the West and they think, “Oh, it’s just so sweet.” In Asia, you would basically be committing social suicide to draw that kind of attention to a girl. So, I mean, one of the situations you kind of want to avoid is where lots of people are basically looking at them and looking at you interacting with them. [Angel Donovan]: And in some places it’s not normal to just walk up to people and approach them. I mean, this isn’t totally relevant to the whole of China anymore, but when I first got to Shanghai in 2003, I remember approaching one girl, and you know, I approached many and this actually repeated itself many times, and walking next to her in the street I just start talking to her, which is completely unknown, and people start looking at her, right? So the first rule of that is like, if you’re going to talk to someone in the street—and I think Shanghai is okay these days, but some of the other towns in China which aren’t quite as modernized—you probably don’t want to do it when there's a lot of people around. Do we have to ask our parents for permission to talk to people now? And this is true I think everywhere in the world, but I think it’s especially true in Asia. [Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I totally agree with this, and it’s kind of interesting because I’ve been in Asia for the last five, six… And the last year I’ve spent in New York and London most of the time. I guess like tied to face is the whole social value and community factor and how Asians tend to move around more in groups.
Date, which is kind of like the Hitch of Singapore. He's been a lot in the news there and everything, and he even has some people kind of follow him around sometimes, so that’s kind of a funny twist right there. [Laughs] So I started doing that, and then they just…
He's a doctor (Ph D) of Asian studies and was a professor at National University of Singapore for Philosophical Psychology and Asian Philosophy. So when I’m talking to them they look down or they’ll look away, or they'll do the shy thing or they’ll look disinterested.
So he has a really good academic, rigorous background into the whole area of Asian culture and psychology, and that's something that he's used within his dating coaching business, which has helped him. Then I put my arm around them, and suddenly they kind of look at me sheepishly but then they look back down, and I can just start doing stuff and I don’t get any resistance. I’d never seen this happen in Michigan.” But it was a lot of just understanding the way that… You do see this sometimes in the West, and of course when we talk about Western dating you have to lead and all of this, but it just becomes really, really important in Asia because you’re never going to get the girl who kind of like takes the situation in hand.
[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] [David Tian]: Oh, you mean, like not hamburgers and burgers and pizza? [Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] [David Tian]: But anyway, so yeah, Asia—you know, I did my Ph D in the Asian studies department, and even there we felt a pretty big divide between South Asia, which is mainly represented by India and the surrounding countries there, and Southeast Asia, and then East Asia. Whereas in Asia I think it’s because there's a name for it, I mean there's a concept and it’s very well-known and accepted, is they’re more sensitive to those issues. [David Tian]: [Laughs] [Angel Donovan]: So you know, I mean this is actually very, very practical and useful advice here. And then when you come back to the West you actually see these things really powerful, because now you see like kind of in more depth how women are because you’ve noticed these subtle things and now you can see them… [Angel Donovan]: Because they were magnified in Asia. You know what, the way I think about it is when you go back to New York or Toronto or LA, you can be messy. [David Tian]: You can let go, be loose, and shit happens and you touched too far or you might spit out [laughs] because you’ve had too much to drink, and you can get away with all that.
So it’s really good to have someone with a very rigorous background and a lot of experience. Yeah, I think a lot of it was the Asian romance as they grew up, like things like they didn’t have the Hollywood imprinting about how a man and a woman should be courting each other. Or they’ve been watching the typical Asian dramas where there's the shy girl… And then you have like, you know, if you look at those kinds of dramas, it’s always the guy who wants to do everything, right? And she’s actually going to look like she’s resisting if you don’t know what you’re looking for. It’s rarer to get a girl just looking deeply into your eyes when you first meet and for her to have this deep conversation with you, getting really excited and touching you. See, it only comes from a guy who really knows Asia, who’s been to Asia, because when you’re in the West you just think Asian food are the worst, and Toronto people say, “Hey, where do you want to eat? So most of my research has been on East Asia, which means China, Japan and Korea primarily, and I think they are the most represented in pop culture and in America at least. [David Tian]: But there is a huge Filipino and Vietnamese community in America that's bigger than the Japanese or Korean community that most people don’t realize. So in the West maybe you wouldn’t get faulted for making somebody lose face. [Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I think these abstract things can be kind of hard to understand. [Angel Donovan]: So like if, say, one day you’re in a shopping center and you approach a girl and there's a whole bunch of people around, not people she necessarily knows, is face going to come into that situation at all? Well, the more modernized and Westernized Asians get, the less concerned about what other people think about them matters. [David Tian]: But most Asians care a lot about what other people think of them. It’s about timing and being aware of your environment, seeing that you don’t put social pressure on her, which is going to negatively affect the situation. [Angel Donovan]: So you have to pay attention to that factor. If you’re in a bar or club, you really need to focus a lot on positioning and getting mini-isolation so that her back is to her peer group if you’re going to escalate physically in any way, because otherwise she’s going to be super-sensitive about what her friends are thinking about her. Whereas in Asia, the margin of error is not quite as large and you really have to keep your game tight.